Episode 1
Art vs Design with Derek Hollister
I said, well, I wanted to jump back to something you said you were talking about your professor about design, right? And what was the poster again? It said...
Derek (00:49)
It said, show me a design I've never seen before. And it was a call to action. It was a challenge. And it was meant to challenge us as young designers to just push, push, push. He was kind of famous for, now I don't want to see an idea or two, I want to see 70. Like, give me all the thumbnails you can give me. If you haven't done X amount, you haven't done enough. And it was always like an obscene number for, you know, a class three days from now kind of thing. But, you know, it did, challenged you to just kind of get the expected ideas out there, push harder to that unexpected place and territory, get a little wild and creative...
Doug (01:15)
Yeah.
Derek (01:29)
and know that like, those are never going to make it. That's not going to work. But I needed to get that idea out to riff on it, to work through it, to get it to some other further evolved states. So that was such a good set of lessons learned as a young designer. know, and I actually, I mean, still, I don't know what year, I guess I graduated about 16 years ago from that college. So I mean, it's still fresh in my mind. I know it's something I think about when I'm thinking about pushing through and, and like pushing a little bit harder, a little bit deeper, or challenging my team to do the same.
Doug (01:59)
Yeah, I think it's a really good idea and sort of challenge, if you will. But I guess for me... design is about problem solving. And So when I think about like trying to be original, in some cases, that doesn't solve the problem, that just makes it harder. Like you think about websites and you think about, you know, the user experience and how they navigate, like sometimes just changing it to be a weird looking button is not gonna help. Right?
Derek (02:25)
Yeah, for sure. Now I think it all goes down, it boils down to what you just mentioned. What problems are we actually trying to solve, right? I think in the case of... brand in trying to be unique and leave a footprint and be iconic. Like there can be some problems where that mentality of show me a design I've never seen before really resonates. And then in other instances, it might need to fit a family or it might need to fit into something that's existing. Certainly in the case of like web design and UX, mean, we try to always be original for sure, but absolutely with certain things like e-commerce, there are so many familiar patterns out there that we're all just conditioned to, ingrained to anymore. That matter of fact, last night I was doing some online shopping late while watching the game. I think, I forget the brand, but there was a clothing brand where I was trying to order a sweater for my daughter that my wife saw, she liked, she kind put on the list. And as I'm going through that e-commerce experience, it was a very differently designed e-commerce site, like to be more creative, more stylish. And honestly, as somebody that designs sites for a living that has been involved in that process pretty intimately for a long time, I was confused as I was checking out and I got super annoyed and I actually almost abandoned the purchase because it wasn't, nothing was familiar and it was seemingly done that way for style reasons only. And I found that to be a really annoying aspect of that UX. So it had an impact almost cost them a sale at the end of the day. I think she'll look awesome in the sweater. So we went ahead and made the purchase, but you know, it was pretty annoying. And it just, everything felt unfamiliar and I felt like I had to relearn what I was doing while doing it on the fly, while tired. You know, it was just kind of a weird set of, of kind of conditions and circumstances.
Doug (04:06)
Yeah, and I think that there's some brands. So when I think of like the spectrum, I think of... There's design and there's art. And so when you think about art, it's like absolutely has to be unique all the time. Like you want it to stand out and be just totally different. You think about design, it's got to be practical. It's a balance of that. So in your example, when you're talking about a checkout experience on a website, that's not the time to be unique and novel. That's the time to...
Derek (04:20)
No.
Doug (04:33)
move them through that funnel and get them to the end to complete that purchase as frictionless as possible. Right. And so the, I think the bigger the brand or the more luxurious the brand is. So if you were on, don't know, gonna guess that you weren't spending a couple thousand dollars on that sweater for your daughter. When you get into that space, that's where.
Derek (04:41)
100%. Right. Right.
Doug (04:59)
You know, that purchase can feel more adventurous or like a bigger experience because you're making a bigger purchase, right? But I think in the, in the everyday life and kind of things that we do, I'm not saying that everything has to look like Amazon or Walmart.com, right? But there's definitely a place to stand out and be different. And then there's a place to just get in line and, and make the sale.
Derek (05:24)
Yeah, 100%. And I think in the world of like fast fashion, which is the world I was in last night, you you said it right. You said it. you said it best. I think you can have a unique experience, like up to a certain point in that shopping experience and in that journey. And then at a certain stage, man, I don't even know that I want a normal, like traditional checkout. I want that like quick, single sign on or single sign out kind of checkout process where I can just click to do through shop.com or Apple and I'm checked out within seconds and frictionless, simple. I don't have to think about any of the steps at that point, right? That's where you're going to start to lose me a little bit. I think when you are talking like luxury brand, right? And there's multiple figures behind that dollar sign, not just like something simple and cheap. I think that is when you can take some adventure and some risk. You know, I think people are wanting a different experience, bit of uniqueness, maybe something like more immersive to just feel like part of a different world. And I think that's when you take the calculated risk to differentiate with something unique and novel.
Doug (06:26)
Well, I think it also adds to sort of the exclusivity of the product that you're selling at that point, too, right?
Derek (06:30)
Yeah, yeah, and I think it's something to build up excitement about it too, right? You know, I think it's fun.
Doug (06:36)
Yeah, it's not just the bag, right? Or the watch or whatever it is that you're buying. It's the experience and it's everything that comes along with it, right? And when we're talking about higher end brands like that.
Derek (06:40)
Mm-hmm.
Doug (06:51)
They have these amazing in-store experiences and how are you translating that to online? then, I mean, what about that last mile, right? What about the at-door experience that they're getting when they open that box and that whole thing?
Derek (07:00)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. And I also feel like, you know, that's an area where you can also offer a bit of concierge service when appropriate, right? Whether that's in some kind of like a process or a portal or some kind of backend where you're welcomed in to like the world you live in or your family or whatever, right? From a brand standpoint. So in my mind, that's where that white glove service can look really cool in a digital way and be pretty unique and I can't wait to see what the world of AI has for that type of experience and how it can bring that feel to maybe brands that we don't think of as luxury brands, but we think of as just ones that put UX first, ones that put user needs and anticipation first as...
Doug (07:46)
up watching TV with commercials and seeing during the day, like seeing infomercials, right? And seeing all and always wondering like, who calls in and buys this, right? Like who's buying this shit for real? And it's the older, it's our parents, right? It's the older generation that's doing it. And I'm like, I'm never gonna fall for that. Right.
Derek (07:52)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, never, never, I've never ever done that or no, nobody that has, nor would I, no way. No, I'm just joking. I probably have, I don't know what it was for. It's probably like CDs back in the day, right?
Doug (08:11)
But... But... I totally fell for those in the mailers when those came into the mail and it was like, absolutely. And then you had to, you had to quickly like cancel it before you got paid. You got like signed up for the whole year. But no, you know what has gotten me now? I don't know. Probably. Gosh. Four or five times now more than I'd like to admit is a very, very well targeted, mostly product I do not need like a gag gift.
Derek (08:20)
Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah? Thanks.
Doug (08:41)
Essentially a meme on a product that I can click on Instagram and buy with Apple pay and have it in like three weeks. And I forgot about it, but then there's a package from China that gets me. And that is our day, our version of the infomercial.
Derek (08:44)
Yeah, 100 % man, I think there's been so many products I've tested, new companies I've discovered through Instagram ads that are very, I wanna say that I can rise above and not be influenced in those ways and then they hit me with something and it's like, I gotta check this out more. And then I'm seeing retargeting ads galore the next couple weeks and it's like, all right, let's just commit. Let's see what this is like, let's order it, see if we like it. If we don't, we can ship it back. Praying that they don't have a difficult return policy or something like that. But yeah, I think that it's actually almost easier for us to order. Like I think if this is the comparison, right? That this is the new infomercial, man, we're in trouble because it's so much easier to just click a few taps on your phone or tap a few buttons on your phone, double tap your Apple Pay acceptance and boom, it's shipped to you in a couple of weeks when you've totally forgotten about ordering it in the first place. Yeah, is, that can be.
Doug (09:49)
And now you can like split it up into payments. mean, literally all you do is look at it, you double click, it scans your face and you're done. I didn't create an account. I didn't do anything other than that. And I go back to it. I'll buy like t-shirts, this t-shirt from one brand of a t-shirt that I tried multiple brands, found this one. I'm like,
Derek (09:51)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's it.
Doug (10:11)
And they'll drop a new color and I'll click, click done. I don't even know if I have an account with them.
Derek (10:14)
Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you. think I found the brand Noble, right? The like workout brand of apparel through Instagram ads and targeting. And now they're my favorite workout, like apparel. And I have way too many products from them. But they even have what's kind of been a fascinating, I think, evolution and...
Doug (10:18)
You!
Derek (10:35)
this new age of infomercials, if you will, is now there are dedicated channels that follow them that will announce drops when sales happen or major breakpoints in pricing happen on either specific items or seasonal stuff. So they as a brand can put out that messaging, but now they can also just rely on not even influencers that they're paying. It's like influencers that love that brand, that follow that brand, that have a following because of their love for that brand. And what a just fascinating evolution in the world of marketing that this is the place we're in now. I'm excited to see where it goes in 10 years. It's going to be kind of scary, but it's going to also, I think, be really, really fun, really interesting.
Doug (11:15)
AI influencers, that's where it's going to go. Those might not even be real people that you're following.
Derek (11:17)
Yeah. As long as my kids don't have unfettered access to a credit card, I think I'm good. I'm not too optimistic at that point.
Doug (11:27)
Man.
Derek (11:27)
So what's the best or, now let's start this, let's start that question over. What's the funniest thing that you've purchased from the new infomercial?
Doug (11:37)
Gosh, I just, so last year for my mom, she loves puzzles and like she gets into these jigsaw puzzles. And so one of them that came up was a puzzle where the cover of the picture on the front of the box was entirely different than what was actually in the puzzle.
Derek (11:43)
Hmm, beautiful. I've seen those. I love them. Yeah.
Doug (11:58)
And so it's this, really like beautiful, you know, countryside, whatever photo. And I thought she would dig that. But then she starts putting it together and it's actually, is, it is a field, but then in the field are all these dogs taking, taking a shit. There's probably like 10, 12 dogs. And, and my mom, you know, she's a very,
Derek (12:05)
No, no. Yeah ⁓ beautiful.
Doug (12:23)
Conservative person, I would say. She was, she was like shocked and she was like, this puzzle has a whole bunch of dogs taking, taking craps in a field. And she was, she was offended and she was like, you know, and I was like, well, you know, I was like, it's a gag gift. I thought it would be hilarious, you know, and she was really offended. And then she was like, I'm totally giving this to my friend.
Derek (12:26)
So that was quite a... man. Yeah, for the meme gift. That's great. So how far along in the puzzle kind of completion process before she realized?
Doug (12:54)
I don't know how far she got, but I think it was pretty far along. I mean, like she knew and she kept going. you know, she couldn't not finish the puzzle, but she was offended and then wanted to offend someone else with it.
Derek (13:01)
Yeah. That's great. And then we wanted to pay it for it. Yeah, I see where you get it. Actually think I see where the apple didn't fall far from the tree there. That's great.
Doug (13:15)
Yeah.
Doug Logan (13:17)
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