Episode 14
Sitting in the Mess with Jay Mena
I have the most fun, where I usually deliver the most value. From brick and mortar, like I owned a tire shop, we did trucks and cars to now digital. It always comes down to the same thing and that right, and it's it's it's it's it's experience. It's just client experience and and and trying to deliver value with that as well as any other solution or problem we solve.
Doug Logan (01:08)
I think when we talked, you were talking a lot about one of the things that you do is help creative teams. It almost sounded like you were like a creative therapist. Am I right in this? Like that's kinda how you…
Jay Mena (01:16)
Yeah, well, I love that you say that because I I that's a big thing for us. And in fact the word therapist does come up often. So the fact that you said that is freaking awesome. yeah, I would say that for us as a design practice, we tend to make it really clear from the beginning that yes, design strategy is where our center is and we can break that down a little bit further down the line. The idea is that for us, our greatest value is being able to sit right next to that seat, not further downstream where many design firms have lived for a while, and that is once all of the broad strategy has been established and decided on, then it becomes more of an execution process, right? And we don't like that. We find that where we deliver the greatest value is upstream sitting at that table where we can really be not only a sounding board to the person that has to make that decision for a transformation or or a new campaign and how that all plays out once design strategy and design is executed on.
So that is where the therapy comes in. And it's important to note that if we have the experience from a business perspective, not just from a design perspective, but really how the professional that's sitting in front of us, how we solve their problem and how we solve the company problem because those are two two totally separate things, particularly when they have cross functional teams that are dysfunctional, you know.
Doug Logan (02:43)
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And we're very much the same way. In fact, we're next year twenty-five years in business. So we're getting ready to like a kind of reposition, focus on what we're doing and and who we're doing it for and why we love what we do. And that idea there is a pattern that we're kind of seeing in ourselves. Like we yeah, we work really close with the founder or the family or whoever's Like the pioneer, whoever's leading the business, and they typically are wearing multiple hats. So, yes, there might be a marketing team. Typically in our case, it might be, you know, a couple people, but usually the founder has you know business problems that they need to solve. They've got a vision and a goal and they're trying to get somewhere. They don't necessarily know how to translate that into marketing or creative or brand speak and and put it to action, but they know. They need to go from here to there, and they gotta find a team or lead a team to get there. In some cases, like we're doing everything from branding all the way through to you know SEO, GEO, whatever.
And in some cases we're coming alongside, and the brand is already established, they already have a beautiful website. There's no reason to, you know, throw the baby out with the bathwater, if you will,and start over. It's just more like, all right, so somebody had this beautiful idea, beautiful pictures and everything like that, and had an idea, but then they didn't they didn't actually get any traction with it. And we can help with that too. So yeah, I I totally resonate with what you're saying and how you're looking at it. I love that challenge. Working close Yeah.
Jay Mena (04:09)
Right? The hard stuff. Isn't that where the real value is? Especially at a time where things are getting easier, so to speak, right? at least on the execution side. So no, that's the thing. That's hard work. It's what I like to call, also like sitting in the mess, right? And and and I'll tell you, like, for example, what you do, Where you go deeper in the marketing side, we tend to synthesize a lot of that. So what happens is if we're working with a mid sized team that does have a couple of departments as opposed to just a founder that has all the functions happening in their head, is that you know, we get to sit at the table to interpret, make sure that what we're receiving from every team is actually what they intend. And understanding that every department has different KPIs, man, and and we can say that we're all going after the same thing, but are we really right? And making sure that we understand that to then have a design strategy that works, and it's not about the pretty stuff. Well, that can be subjective, and we'll figure out what that is, you know. But this is the part, right?
But I will say about sitting in the mess. And I think that that's a part that I choose to in some cases take the hard route. Right? And something and and and the reason why is is alluding to what I mentioned earlier is that not only is that where the fun is, but that's it it's kinda like holding the line on, yeah, I'm not gonna just hit the easy button. Because it's there, man. Because when you do sit in the mess, what you catch that the algorithm will not is all that data that only you can capture by, for example, only you know the stress that this marketing leader is under and what the politics are internally, and they they either just joined 30 days ago, they have a 90-day plan that started without them. And that algo is gonna give you so you know, if you rely only on the easy button, you're gonna miss the most important part of it all. So I sit in the mess. I do the old school research as a preliminary step to make sure that I'm being honest about what I received and how I would approach it. And then that's to do strategy sparring with AI. Absolutely. I'd be silly not to. But it's grounded on something meaningful, not something that sounds smart, you know.
Doug Logan (06:18)
Yeah. Sitting in the mess...
I mean this is something I've been wrestling with a lot. And one of the things that like I have found over the years, twenty plus years doing this, is that a lot of times we come into the room thinking that everyone has had the same experience and that they know the same things that we know. And so then we don't say things because we feel like we're just repeating them for no reason. And I think that's so, so far off. Like you have a very different life than I did. You know what it means? Like we might be in the same realm, we might be working with some of the same clients, doing some of the same things, but you have a very different life experience than I have. And there's something we both could bring to the table that the others, you know, the other side of the table doesn't know.
I love that you're saying sitting in the mess is one of the things where like I kind of like took that for granted and I didn't think I kind of felt like everyone was doing that. And I and I started to look around, I'm like, I don't think so. In fact, like with the last couple of clients that have come to us, and actually I would say the vast majority of the clients that come to us, they come to us with a mess that another agency or somebody else left. And they're like, they didn't do this, this, and this. And I'm verbatim. Recent client that just signed on last month. They're like they said this about their agency. They're like, I feel like I have a very expensive admin assistant that I have to tell them what to do. And that's just not how I expect an agency to operate. And I'm like, yeah, I don't expect that either. And that's kind of where it started to click for me.
Jay Mena (07:51)
And you know what? Isn't that what happens though? Yeah yeah exactly. But it's because of the race to the middle that the conversation I keep hearing is that you know agencies that leaned too heavily into the tools and where technology has taken us is causing that, right? Because a again, you know, and not to hammer it with Thor's hammer here, but it really is about sitting there and saying, Okay, this is the part that I need to need to remain difficult, challenging. I don't need to make this part easier.
Doug Logan (08:23)
I mean, the reward for being an entrepreneur is like you get problems. Like that's what you get. And the reward for solving problems is you get to find more problems. Like it's so addicting. And and it's just it.
Jay Mena (08:35)
You have to do it.
Doug Logan (08:38)
It's a mess. It really is. but I'm here and I'm doing it. And I think I think because From a very young age. Like I had my first business card when I was 14, right? My dad had businesses. Like it was just it was ingrained into me. I always saw more. Like I always looked at the mess, like you're talking about. And I think it was just in there. Innately, it was just like part of my DNA and not something that, you know, the more the more I pull back and look at it, not everyone looks at it that way. And it absolutely here's the thing it is like it like if you flip the table around and you say, Well, well, like what's why don't people do that? Right? Like let's let's flip it around now, like and say, like, why don't people do that? And I can see the advantages to not doing that, because there is a like, well, it's not my job. Right? Like I said we're going to get to this metric, I said we're gonna get you this many leads, I said we're going to drive this much revenue, blah, blah, blah.
I don't care if they're terrible customers or terrible guests or they you know your return rate goes through the roof. You know what I mean? Like not my problem. Right? So it shields you from having to worry about those things. And as long as you keep hitting your metrics and you keep getting more and more clients, then I guess who cares? Right? I care and and I want clients. Again, I said I was gonna be negative here and I keep coming back to the positive. I want long term clients and we have that. We have clients we've had for decades, you know, and there's that innate trust that's there and and there is also just the ability to see what's coming next and be able to work on it and help them grow.
Jay Mena (10:14)
You have these decades with these clients, right? So you know, the proof is in the pudding, you've seen the result of what that is obviously the way you've always been, which is huge and a huge advantage and some people are learning it along the way. But then the thing is you see how they overuse the term, you know, obviously, you know, partnership. What does it really mean after all, right? So it's overused in the sense that, you know, everyone can say they're looking for partners.
But then they don't behave like partners. And and that's exactly what, you know, to your point, you know, partners do certain things. There's certain things a partner will do. And it's it's very different than you know having a client. right? And a partner can be a client, but a client isn't always a partner and usually it's our fault. I don't think that there's a client that would go into it saying I hope this is just a slam bam thank you man relationship, you know, because they want a winner, right? So if they have a winning partner in an agency, then the natural thing for any human is to say, this worked. Not only did I get what I needed, I feel I'm cared for there, I want more of that. And that's just what's gonna happen, right? But I think it's just the honesty of looking at what creating partnerships really means and what the cost is, and being okay with that cost so that in the end, you also get what you're looking for. When we're talking about it here, it sounds like, yeah, well sure, that's pretty obvious. Well, not as common. And that's what I think I work hard for with you know, along with my partner Alex, is say, okay, but is this that we agreed on, this scope has changed since and we're not gonna we're not talking about scope creep here. We're talking about our own evaluation of, well look, we're four weeks into this, and I'll tell you, we should have a very honest conversation about this. And some of the scope is gonna have to change. And if we have to eat some of it to make sure that in the end we get a case study, then that's the cost we have to be willing to take.
You know, and that and that's that's that's just we have to be honest with ourselves, man. And and and it's a two way street. We want value out of our relationships with clients and we claim partnership. Well you're gonna have to, we're gonna have to eat some stuff. Of course we have to be responsible about how we manage our projects and our revenue and our and our budgets. But I am saying that we need to go into every project with the idea that we're going to uncover something. Let's work that into our mindset and that we're not gonna leave stones unturned, or leave the client with the feeling that, you know what, they could have told me something and they didn't. And have them think that it was because it wasn't an item on the list and I don't want that.
Doug Logan (12:48)
Yeah, I mean The contract's there for the worst case scenario. Right. It's for the end. Like you're planning for the death of something, essentially, is what that's I mean I've said this before at the like the first time we had a kickoff call. Like this is when we are gonna like each other the most. Because we're gonna run through problems, we're gonna there're gonna be things where we don't see eye to eye and we're gonna have to seek alignment. So like we're at the beginning of a brand new relationship And I think that's where the commitment comes into it. And so how do you build trust to that? And one of the ways that we've done that is that I can tell you, hey, Jay, we're gonna get started and it's gonna take us this much time to get through these things and blah, blah, blah. And it's, you know, give us a good ninety days to really dive into everything or whatever it might be, and then we'll see some real progress and see where we're at.
Jay Mena (13:40)
You're earning that relationship. And that's how yeah, that's how you earn trust. When we talk about trust though, There's a certain humility, I think, that is kind of part of the equation for us. We used to walk into the room and feel like we were the smartest people in the room. And that's not necessarily the case, right? But there's an idea that we had something that was a different language to clients, you know, these guys have this special sauce. And now we, just naturally have that care that you talked about, that that attention to earning trust, are in a very nice position right now, you know, with everything going on. So I think that that's a big thing.
