Episode 6
The Dichotomy of Leadership with Laura Norup-Boyer
I don't know, how long have you been in the industry?
Laura Norup-Boyer (00:54)
So I'm going into my eighth year, marketing much longer than that. I'm gonna date myself probably 20 years in marketing. But yeah, leading an agency for eight years and weirdly enough, I totally embrace the imposter syndrome, I think. Not having it is the dangerous part. That's when you become complacent or aloof or that's, I think as long as you're not crippled with, but you're still driven, you're using it to your advantage. You're using it to push you to never think, oh, I've got this. So you're constantly learning more. You're constantly challenging yourself because you don't fully trust your abilities. I think that's what's pushing you to growth and optimization.
Doug Logan (01:38)
Yeah, I mean, I would agree with that. When I immediately hear imposter syndrome, I think, I guess I go to the extreme and I think of the crippling aspect of it. Going into a room and feeling like I'm not good enough to be in this room. And I would say that you and I think myself included have earned the right to be in the room. And that doesn't mean that we have to be the smartest person in the room. I think that is a difference and that is a choice by leadership. I'd much rather be, you know, surrounded by people that are much smarter than me because as a team collectively, right, we can, we can achieve much more. Right. So the way I think you're looking at it is almost from that, that learning and, and, listening and humility aspect of it, which I completely agree with. We have to listen. We've got to learn. We can't come in into every situation and just immediately say like, I'm the expert. Here's your problems. Let's fix it. We have to be able to listen to the challenges, even if they are the same, because like you said before, this is client services and at the end of the day, we're dealing with people and people want to be heard and understood. And so I have no problem with that. But I do have a problem if you feel like you're not an expert or you don't belong in the table. I would totally disagree with that.
Laura Norup-Boyer (02:51)
I think that's probably more of a maturity. If I think of 20 year old Laura, she was crippled by imposter syndrome. And I think the more you get a seat at the table, the more you realize, hang on. Not everyone at this table knows their shit. And so I think it's just, experience and lot of repetition where over time you realize you are surrounded by a lot of imposters and they don't have the syndrome which good for them they're just walking through life being completely stupid and confidence with that so yay good for you buddy. It's just growth and experience and being at this table and realizing there's some very smart people and some very dumb people.
Doug Logan (03:20)
Ha ha!
Laura Norup-Boyer (03:35)
And so you have that seat at the table.
Doug Logan (03:37)
I think that’s a great point because, great ideas can come from anywhere and anyone, right? And the idea is not as important as the execution, but an idea can spark and kind of move and go on its own if it has enough energy. having dealt with imposter syndromes and still dealing with it in certain rooms, for sure, it's important for us to realize it when we see it in other people and be able to, as leaders, to kind of like fan that flame and get them past that. Because again, we grow better together. We're not meant to do anything alone, really.
Laura Norup-Boyer (04:13)
Yes.
Doug Logan (04:14)
That was good. We were smart for another minute.
Laura Norup-Boyer (04:16)
I'll tell you that at the end of the month. I'm hoping I can implement what I've been trying to teach my team. It's just when you're off, off. It's just, I think when you're running a business, any kind of business. You can't stay away from it and even though you might have a great team that handles things perfectly, I don't know, maybe there's also the owner guilt of you feel like you've just abandoned your team and to fend for themselves in this cruel world.
Doug Logan (04:45)
I think in a lot of cases, it's us as owners and leaders that need to let go more than anything because we can't just oversee and be involved in everything. And sometimes you have to let go in order to see if somebody can live up to that task and hopefully do it better than you expected and be able to grow from that, right? I mean, that's the point. I mean, nobody, owners, employees, whatever, nobody wants to stay stagnant. They always want to be growing, right? You always want to have some sort of progress. And so as leaders, we have to give them that opportunity to grow. They might fail and we need to be able to pick them up. And of course, we to take the blame, you know, if it's a public failure that a client can see, but we have to be able to give them those opportunities.
Laura Norup-Boyer (05:32)
Well, you see a lot of companies that have founderitis.
Doug Logan (05:34)
Founderitis.
Laura Norup-Boyer (05:35)
You've never heard the term?
Doug Logan (05:36)
No please explain.
Laura Norup-Boyer (05:37)
Founderitis, I've seen it time and time again. It's when, especially in the startup world, I find, is where the founder cannot get out of the way. It's their baby, their idea, it's still their everything, it's their precious. And they cannot get out of their way. So companies that have founderitis are doomed to fail because the founder never pulls away and goes to focus on bigger things, bigger picture. They're constantly wanting to call it micromanage, but really they constantly want to be involved in every single decision. Certain companies have founderitis and then it's just that you cannot save them.
Doug Logan (06:13)
We call it the swoop and poop. It's where the owner swoops in, poops on the idea and then leaves the room, you know, not there to clean up the mess. Just, that's an interesting take. Yeah. and the wake of that is the interesting thing. I've been in the room when, when founderitis or swoop and poops happen.
Laura Norup-Boyer (06:15)
Yeah. The seagull flyover.
Doug Logan (06:32)
…and the team shuts down, right? Which is not what you want to have happen because then, yeah, it is tough. founderitis is a clause.
Laura Norup-Boyer (06:36)
No, it tanks the project every time. And that's why we have those built into clauses. Well, the swoop and poop clause, you don't have one?
Doug Logan (06:47)
How does it go? How does the swoop and poop clause go?
Laura Norup-Boyer (06:49)
So, in my previous agency, the swoop and poop clause was essentially that any stakeholder that had not been identified in the kickoff meeting and been the regular parts of deliverable meetings or updates, so any stakeholder that was not part of that and that suddenly shows up on the project incurs like a fee. There was an increase on the project fee and they had to sign on it.
Doug Logan (07:15)
That's an interesting clause. Yeah. I think we have it.
Laura Norup-Boyer (07:18)
It was not my most popular clause, but it made sure that if there was going to be someone that we needed just to be aware that there could be a threat to the project or delay to the project, at the very least, they had to be part of regular meetings as opposed to showing out of nowhere, typically close to project ends and just doing your seagull fly over and pooping on it and delaying the launch of whatever it might be by several weeks and tanking a lot of good work. So if they're actively involved from the start, at least you manage that from the start.
Doug Logan (07:51)
But honestly, like once, once you come into those situations, we've had them happen where all of a sudden someone who was not involved gets involved and has an opinion. and by the way, they own half the company. You're right. It completely derails everything. And you're stuck between now, two different sides and two different opinions. And they're both, they both matter. And now all of sudden you go from being an agency owner to a therapist to then, you know, hopefully not, you know, a lawyer.
Laura Norup-Boyer (08:20)
Well, I always said that any agency owner after a few years should have an honorary diploma as a psychologist because you have to do so much of it. That's also why it was terrifying the first time I did it, but that's also why I had to get comfortable with firing clients. Didn't happen all the time, but it happens. And sometimes you have to say, look, you derailed this project as such. There is nothing we can help you with, take everything we've delivered. We want to issue the final invoice and good luck to you.
Doug Logan (08:49)
Yeah. You got to be honest, they no.
Laura Norup-Boyer (08:51)
You have to say no for the good of everyone. You have to say no for the good of the business you're working with, for the good of the project, and for your team. Because if you have a leader that never says no, you're going to burn out your team real fast.
Doug Logan (09:03)
And you have to be able to say no so you can say yes to something better. I mean, sometimes.
Laura Norup-Boyer (09:06)
Yeah, what's that line? Like every time you have to make space for something better. And every time it happens, it's great. You just have to believe.
Doug Logan (09:14)
Yeah, it's also freeing, just saying no sometimes. Just as we'll say no.
Laura Norup-Boyer (09:17)
It's such a power trip. It is such a power trip because they think, yeah, I'm the one spending all this money. And then you fire them and you're like, and by the way, we don't even want all of your money. Priceless. I think years of doing that, it's taught me how to be comfortable in conflict or how to be comfortable in uncomfortable situations. A lot of the time what I'll say to my team or even my kids is, I'm not seeking conflict, but if conflict arises, it doesn't make me uncomfortable, I'm comfortable sitting in it. And that's when you can get to a resolution. It's because you're not being defensive, you're not trying to shy away from it. You just learn to sit in discomfort.
Doug Logan (10:00)
Yeah. I think it's good though to sometimes seek discomfort. Maybe not in everything, but in life. Yeah. yeah, you said conflict. I thought of comfort.
Laura Norup-Boyer (10:07)
Yeah, discomfort may be not conflict. I'm not seeking conflict. I'm not out there like, Hey, you want to fight? But if there is, then think too often now people are just, relying behind devices to have uncomfortable conversations and sometimes just getting on the call or getting in front of someone. Just that can solve so much.
Doug Logan (10:32)
It's interesting when you think about a room full of people and then actually think about like the differences. Like every person in that room has a life story as unique and different as yours is. I think that for me anyways, going into a situation where sales is the outcome that I'm looking for. I have to switch that off. Like I have to stop looking at a situation as ones and zeros or dollars or no dollars, right? A sale. Like even like the nineties were a long time ago and that's when used car salesmen, were the ones selling the cars and pushing it. And we didn't have the information at our fingertips like we do now. Now, it really does matter that you're an actual human being and not a piece of shit, right? And somebody that I want to spend time with can trust and get to know. And so what that means is that essentially all the sales training in the world doesn't matter because at the end of the day, people want to know you.
Laura Norup-Boyer (11:28)
Yeah, in its genuine interest. I think all of my years of being exposed to sales and marketing have become allergic to it in a sense. Where I recently had to go buy a new car and it was between two dealerships and at one it was very aggressively sales oriented and at the other one it's almost like they couldn't care less. They're like, yeah, we don't really need your business. And I went with the other one, the one that didn't really need my business because I felt that every interaction was going to be a lot more authentic. And I didn't feel like I was put through a sales program.
Doug Logan (12:04)
And then the internet. They had like the great equalizer. I remember buying my first car took my uncle and pretended my cousin, he was another dealer. So my uncle would call him so that one has a sunroof. and it's certified. Interesting. ⁓ and it's $2,000 less. Now we have the internet, you can't do that anymore.
Laura Norup-Boyer (12:23)
But for me it was more matter of going back again to the agency life, is the person trying to get to know me, is the person really trying to understand what my challenge is and what I'm trying to solve and it's interested in the challenge as opposed to just pushing a solution without knowing what the solution is for.
Doug Logan (12:40)
Were you looking at the same vehicle in both dealerships or was it?
Laura Norup-Boyer (12:43)
Yep. The exact same. Same brand, same everything. But yeah, it was on the approach. It's like, is the person looking to develop a relationship or is the person looking to make a sale?
Doug Logan (12:53)
My last car I bought online completely. Never talked to a single human being. It arrived to my house a couple weeks later.
Laura Norup-Boyer (13:00)
I'm not sure I'm that confident. Maybe I know a lot less about cars, but I don't think I could do it.
Doug Logan (13:02)
Yeah.
Laura Norup-Boyer (13:06)
You have that in the agency world too. And you can see it over and over again. You know, the agencies that are going to play the change order game and they undercut everyone. And in the end, the projects ends up being way more than, than the client had originally budgeted. And then that hurts us all because then, then you got a client that's going to go find another agency, but will have lost trust and has been damaged or hurt before and you have to work on repairing them.
Doug Logan (13:34)
That's something I never want to do. And I also, would say like on the flip side, we probably don't issue enough change orders. So like, I thought about making that like a bragging point, but I'm like, no, we really should be better than like one a year.
Laura Norup-Boyer (13:48)
Well, the way we had addressed it was to spend a lot more time in the pre-proposal discovery and pre-proposal conversations to make sure you're accurately scoping the challenge and mapping a solution to it. Then we'd actually have the black bean guarantee of the price you're signing on is what we're going to invoice you. But for that, we need to spend a lot of time with you, like making sure that we have fully scoped everything you are looking for and everything you need. So I'd have, you know, our sales process was a lot longer than most businesses, I guess, because I'd have six, seven, eight rounds of meetings and conversations. Just for us to be able to live up to our guarantee of not issuing a change order.
Doug Logan (14:33)
Good guarantee.
